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Do you like sock puppet games?
Yes.  75%
boo (1), S~V~S (2), LittleTiger (4)
 75%  [ 3 ]
No.  25%
unfurl (3)
 25%  [ 1 ]
Yes, but not for last man standing games.  0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
I don't care.  0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Sometimes, I would need to know more before deciding in this case though.  0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Just show me the results.  0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 4

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 Post subject: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:21 pm 
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So, RM has a lot of great out-of-game discussion, be that for movies/tv shows, books, games, and other random stuff. But... if you look down the list in the mafia game chat sub-forum, it is kind of sad that while there are great games played here, and great non-mafia related discussion here, there isn't a lot of mafia related, but not a specific game related, discussion. I do think that the Thoughts on how we play thread is (was, it seems to have died) good, and if you haven't, is worth giving a read, but it isn't quite what I'm looking to get going, as it is a very specific "compare how games here are run vs. games at other sites", which while generating good discussion, isn't what I'm going for.

This thread is my attempt at changing that. I had a few other ideas for what would of been several threads. I wanted to ask people questions about their preferences, and I wanted to create an all things hosting-related thread. If just working on your first game ever, or hosts with lots of experience looking to ask players questions about what they would like to see in games like I wanted to do, it basically would have been a beefed up version of the hosting faq, to give hosts a chance at getting a better idea of what kind of game the community would like to play so they can design such a game, or just hammering out how best to work roles and mechanics. I think combining all these ideas, at least for what I wanted out of such threads, will work for right now.

*Just a quick definition though, in the title I used "better", and I just want to be clear that I don't mean that there's anything wrong with games now, but that I think there is room for improvement, and that sometimes the games that hosts want to run are not the games that people want to play. While the hosting poll does account for that, there are times where you want a nice simple game, and times when you want a crazy/chaotic/very involved game, and it's just hard to know when those times will hit, so it's hard to know how best to vote in those polls. I would like to find ways to both improve games in general, and better match the games available to be played with the games players want to play at a specific time, and that's the basic goal of this thread.

Here's how (for now) I see this working. I am going to create a discussion topic, include a poll so people can make their basic opinion on it clear, and then, hopefully, make a post explaining their view point, and discussing (and perhaps even civilly arguing) with other people. When discussion starts getting stale on a topic, I will come up with a new one, change out the poll, include the results of it in this post, as well a summation of the arguments people gave for their viewpoint. The first topic is one whose responses I plan on... 'using' in the game I currently have in sign ups.

Discussion Topic One: Do you enjoy and/or want to see more chaotic/crazy/evil/very involved games? Do you prefer these types of games to have a large number of players, a smaller number, or any size (if you do enjoy them). If you don't enjoy them, what specifically about them do you find off-putting, and is it something you think could be changed (if so, how) to make it the sort of game you would like to play? My idea of such a game would be basically anything rabbit has hosted (or at least the ones I've played/looked at). Some LT games (her and rabbits KA game, possibly her fey game, I haven't honestly looked at that one to much so I can't say, but I suspect it was), with a game like her and DHs V being somewhere between a chaotic/crazy/evil/very involved game and a 'normal' game. Or my own upcoming game (you can find a handy link to sign up *hint hint* just a little bit up the page). For a game to be under this category for me, it has to go beyond a 'normal mafia' game and have a lot of challenges (a few would, imo, be standard for a normal game), more secrets (be that roles, mechanics, whatever) then normal, new and possibly complex roles/mechanics, essentially just really requiring more participation from players, whether it comes from the host, or from other players.

Feel free to go off topic, ask people your own questions (I may steal them and use them for the poll discussion question if I like them), etc.


Last edited by boo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:34 pm 
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While I don't personally like those type games, I think there are many that do. It seems to me that the limiting factor isn't players, it's people having time to devote to hosting games of that magnitude. It looks like an enormous undertaking.

The reason I don't like them is that they tend to be so lengthy that I typically have to get a replacement at some point. I liKe the mechanics but I simply don't have the time to devote to the long complicated ones.


Last edited by layla on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I do like them, but I do not like when an unusual element, like arcade games, for instance, or talents, become either mandatory, or if some people are excluded from prizes/competitions due to them. Or if they are, perhaps also put in some competitions not involving those elements. I really liked the inside game in your last game, but my team did not really participate, the only person who did died early, and I did not totally understand it.

In complex games, i also like the possibility for temp BTSC so people can kind of explain to each other. Being an isolated civ in such circumstances can be discouraging.

My favorite all time games were very convoluted and multi layered. I love that.


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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:35 pm 
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My games are always complex and very involved... I love chaos, secrets, evilly stuff. Each game I host builds on what I have learned from hosting past games.... I like to experiment and come up with new mechanics. BUT I always always take the players enjoyment into account and ALWAYS ensure that my games are fair and balanced. One thing that does upset me when I host is the odd player that will just not "get" it and starts to have a hissy fit over what they think is unfair. My advice to players is to play the game.... you never know what is going to happen and there are always things you won't be aware of.

I have a lot of very exciting stuff in the works already :whistle: There is also a big surprise coming......



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:41 pm 
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I really like the creative, more complicated games. But I find that it is easier for me to fall behind and then get very overwhelmed and frustrated. This happened to me in the big LOST game.

I also really like the more "vanilla" style mafia games. For me I find that I need one or two vanilla games following a giant, complex ("evil") game otherwise I get burned out.

I'll think more about this--I like the idea of discussing it. Will help me with planning some of the games I have in the works right now.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:04 pm 
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I dont really think I have ever play a very crazy game, or at least I dont recall it :p
Sometimes it just seems too much to handle for me
And I dont play that many games in general

When I hosted or co-hosted here, well only 2 times, so is not like I have a lot experience in it :p but those game had something different from standart game mechanic, but not so crazy imo :p but I was hosting so I knew all the secrets

I like to play games from 21 to 25 players, for me 30 players is too much reading and end ups feeling like homework :lol: , yes Im quiet lazy somedays :p

I dont personally like to play games with just one mafia, from a game mechancic point of view, I have only play few as an exception/favour to a host or a player, so I try to avoid those and the alter ego ones too, cause I personally dont like them

I voted for

None of these options really work for me, I'll explain in the thread.

Cause for me, first I have to see the game mechanics to consider to play it, cause I may not like something or I may feel I dont have the time to commit to play or maybe, most likely, Im in hiatus :politegiggle:

So I guess Im open to may play it, depending on the circunstances :p



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:00 pm 
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I love big, complicated, and evil.

What surprise is that, LT :P :evilmanu: :shrug2:



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:07 pm 
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I love big, complicated, and evil.

What surprise is that, LT :P :evilmanu: :shrug2:


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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:52 am 
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I don't like playing big, crazy games.

I don't know whether it's because I played for so long on LP before I upgraded to piano, then eventually here, but I just prefer smaller games with no more than 30 people, max.

I just loose track of what's going on, there are so many different people talking about different things that I just don't really take it in at all and I just don't get involved as much. I prefer the smaller, more intimate games if you like, because you can really grasp the game and get stuck in.

For a similar reason, I don't really like complex games. I surprised myself with the Lost game, I didn't expect for myself to get so involved, but I really do think that was in large because of the chat rooms that were part of the game. Without that contact, I don't know that I would've felt as inclined to be as involved. Once again, I loose track of things and there's too much going on to really focus, I feel.

I tend to prefer games that are relatively simple in appearance, but have some kind've twist to them that makes them a little different.
I don't like mafia games where I don't feel like I'm playing mafia. Sometimes, it feels like you've signed up to a completely different game, when you know...I wanna play mafia! :lol:

But I realise there are people who do enjoy these games. I'll just stick to the smaller ones. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:34 am 
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I prefer big, complicated and evil. I think they give more scope for baddies to be creative and civvies to be confused which always makes the game better for me. If I get to about day 3 and I have worked out a lot of roles/affiliations I tend to get bored, or worse if I get to day 3 and the whole thread is following one player my interest goes to 0.

Unfortunately, I rarely have the time to play this type of game - full time job + time zone means I struggle to keep up and post in large games... When I have the time to be here I am normally alone.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:12 am 
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I think SoFi just put my feelings into words I couldn't find last night. I also like typical mafia games with something of a twist. That's why my Super Mario Mafia: Bowser's Revenge had the typical mafia set-up, but also the tiny, normal, or super player system with the items so that there was also an aspect of the actual video game added in. I think it worked pretty well and plan to use a similar system when I host a sequel to that game some time in the future.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:04 am 
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I like fun games. I don't like having to win things in games to have powers etc. I want power and competitions I like to be easy and fun.

Im not a fan of shops as I never get enough money to buy anything and think its unfair as the people with btsc get a major advantage IMO.

I like games I'm familiar with the topic. Shows or films etc.

I also like a lot of shocks surprises etc. makes it more interesting.

Doesn't matter what size the game is.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Alright, so for people kind of leaning more towards the no side, I'm just curious if I'm getting what the problems are, and if there are any feasible solutions.

To me (and I've had the same problem in some games, so I'm going to try and describe this as best I can), the problem with the more complex games is that they also tend to be larger games (as in 30+). I didn't play the Lost game here, but, as SoFi mentioned as being part of the reason she was able to keep up with it better, there was more BTSC then usual.

So, would having the normal games of any size, capped at or around 30, to as low as the current 14 or 15 for smaller games, and then having the more complex games really being any size (including smaller ones which you don't tend to see as much, like 20 players or less), and then, regardless of size, also having BTSC available without having to be won, and while not allowing outting in it, making any other discussion, and as the host really just trying to push players to use it as a way of helping each other understand everything that is going on seem like a solution that may make players who either kind of don't like these games, or start to feel overwhelmed by them, be a good solution, and, would players who do enjoy the complexity these games offer feel like increased BTSC takes away from the experience, or would it also improve the game for them. Obviously the game would have to make having BTSC more important in some way so that it isn't just there for the sake of being there, and also, at least in my opinion, the BTSC should not add any further layers of complexity then what already exist (or at least not any significant ones) unless those are made clear at the start of the game so people know to expect that. Which is a good point unfurl brought up, while I have no problem with secrets, I agree with her that giving players an idea of the mechanics involved so they have a good idea of what they are signing up for is important, especially in the case of games that are less mafia-ish then normal, so that people who don't really want to play that style of game don't get tricked (I don't want to say tricked because that makes it sounds like the host is being an ass, because tricking someone makes it sound like it's intentional, but hopefully you know what I mean).



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Alright, so for people kind of leaning more towards the no side, I'm just curious if I'm getting what the problems are, and if there are any feasible solutions.

To me (and I've had the same problem in some games, so I'm going to try and describe this as best I can), the problem with the more complex games is that they also tend to be larger games (as in 30+). I didn't play the Lost game here, but, as SoFi mentioned as being part of the reason she was able to keep up with it better, there was more BTSC then usual.

So, would having the normal games of any size, capped at or around 30, to as low as the current 14 or 15 for smaller games, and then having the more complex games really being any size (including smaller ones which you don't tend to see as much, like 20 players or less), and then, regardless of size, also having BTSC available without having to be won, and while not allowing outting in it, making any other discussion, and as the host really just trying to push players to use it as a way of helping each other understand everything that is going on seem like a solution that may make players who either kind of don't like these games, or start to feel overwhelmed by them, be a good solution, and, would players who do enjoy the complexity these games offer feel like increased BTSC takes away from the experience, or would it also improve the game for them. Obviously the game would have to make having BTSC more important in some way so that it isn't just there for the sake of being there, and also, at least in my opinion, the BTSC should not add any further layers of complexity then what already exist (or at least not any significant ones) unless those are made clear at the start of the game so people know to expect that. Which is a good point unfurl brought up, while I have no problem with secrets, I agree with her that giving players an idea of the mechanics involved so they have a good idea of what they are signing up for is important, especially in the case of games that are less mafia-ish then normal, so that people who don't really want to play that style of game don't get tricked (I don't want to say tricked because that makes it sounds like the host is being an ass, because tricking someone makes it sound like it's intentional, but hopefully you know what I mean).

Dat sentence :blind:

Ontopic:
I agree with trish. The bigger, the more complicated, the more insane, the better. I am more of analytical player and love disecting games apart. I enjoy that much more than building cases, mostly since I think 99% of cases are highly subjective whilst disecting games apart will generally give you facts. I tend to get a bit bored in smaller games if I feel like I understand the game.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Case building as the basis for Mafia bores me (mainly cause I suck at it, lol :whistle: ) My two favorite games were both rabbit games, with ACTA and Secret 2 close behind. I rapidly get bored when people are able to pin down stuff based on the roles.


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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:11 pm 
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That Halloween game was kind of like that right? Lots of surprises and btsc and secret extra btsc and so forth and twists and turns and such but not as many players so you felt like you could keep up. I really liked that one.

I don't remember ever not liking a game here but I have played a few where I felt really overwhelmed and they were usually the big ones.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:20 pm 
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That Halloween game was kind of like that right? Lots of surprises and btsc and secret extra btsc and so forth and twists and turns and such but not as many players so you felt like you could keep up. I really liked that one.

I don't remember ever not liking a game here but I have played a few where I felt really overwhelmed and they were usually the big ones.


Are you talking about LTs game where I think kyle had the big bad wolf role?

And haha typh, yes, I write up posts, then go back and add more, so I end up with a lot of run-ons.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:27 pm 
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That Halloween game was kind of like that right? Lots of surprises and btsc and secret extra btsc and so forth and twists and turns and such but not as many players so you felt like you could keep up. I really liked that one.

I don't remember ever not liking a game here but I have played a few where I felt really overwhelmed and they were usually the big ones.


Are you talking about LTs game where I think kyle had the big bad wolf role?

And haha typh, yes, I write up posts, then go back and add more, so I end up with a lot of run-ons.


Yes, that one was the one meant.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:06 am 
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I do love twists and turns in games - but I like it balanced out with some stuff that can help keep me grounded if that makes sense?

I have played every wabbit game with the exception of the King Arthur one (and was sad I missed it) if I remember correctly. I adore some complexity. That said, these days, I just don't have the time to devote to doing the work necessary in more complex games. It's sad I know, but my lunacy hours at work + living with someone + time zones have really put a cap on how much time and attention I can devote to the games I play.

And I really hate when I sign up for one and then end up having to drop it. :(



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:17 pm 
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I love gigantic games with so much s*it happening that my hed esplodes.
If they are puppet games or I get decent bts than all the more better!

I also like smaller games with lots of stuff happening.

I will play any game almost. I don't necessarily have to know the subject but I do hate being forced to participate in arcade games b/c I am awful at them.
In GoW I really did like that game bts war stuff.
I did learn that game and had fun bts with another baddie on a different team who also incidentally taught me a lot bts with out knowing it :D

I don't mind stores or prizes but I do notice hosts tend to forget the different timezones. It is nice when you are given a time frame to do something than racing to be first with your PM.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:42 pm 
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and that said - I really love puppet games. I love the idea of getting a new persona each game without the limits of what people expect from you as a player.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:40 am 
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I have a harder time with puppet games because I don't like switching between accounts. Especially when I'm playing one normal game and one sockpuppet game.

I still sign up for sockpuppet games because many have been very fun! (Superheroes being my first full experience with it and one of my favorite games :) )



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:48 am 
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Well, I've been putting off posting a new topic (mostly due to having things I want to discuss about TMiBW, but not wanting to start those discussions until the game is over), but I want to try and keep this thread going, so:

New question:

For everyone: Do you enjoy lynch manipulation? To what degree? What are your favourite 3 ways of seeing it implemented? Least favourite 3? Any interesting ideas that (to your knowledge) have never been tried that are lynch manipulation related in some way that you would like to see in a game? Do you prefer available lynch manipulation to be public, so all players know about, secret, so only those who have it know about it, or some mix? Do you think it is possible to make use of heavy lynch manipulation without making a game crazy/chaotic (hey look, a tie in to the previous discussion!)?

Specifically for people who have hosted: Do you make use of lynch manipulation? How much do you implement it? Do you decide in the pre-game when it will be given out, or do you make these decisions as the game progresses in a way to keep things balanced? Do you use it primarily as a tool for punishing players (missing lynches, failing challenges, etc), for prizes, or a mix of both? What is your preferred method of keeping track of lynch manipulation?

I'll get the previous discussion summed up in the next few days and replace the poll then as well.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:22 am 
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i love lynch manipulation the more the better IMO.

lynch switches extra votes taking people with you!. hell yeah.

i always give both the civvies and baddies manipulation to make it balanced and also rebalance as the game goes on if needed



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:24 am 
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also in wedding crashers mafia i used it as punishment i added three votes to the people whonfailed to send in their night abilities and it made for an intresting day two discussion



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:51 pm 
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I do like lynch manipulations, but balanced and mixed some secret and other open to everyone knowledges.

When I had hosted, I had use it, but not very crazy imo

In House of Secrets, Trish and I decided to give one extra vote to people who missed a vote, it was part of the rules, people still missed votting, but I think at least is something that I will still want to use if I/whenever host again.

Im a fan of having all game mechanic preset, and I dont really like interfiring once a game has started, but Im open to exceptions where is need it to balanced a special situation



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:02 pm 
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I am not a fan of prolific vote manipulation, because I had to keep track of all that in King Arthur and it did my head in! :lol: I used a spreadsheet and posted in host section... but it still was difficult.

When I host, I like to add additional votes with prizes, or as part of a role. Just not too much of it. I feel that it can confuse a game if it is not readily apparent why someone was lynched, or that can't be explained... I am a fan of chaos though :devil:

My bottom line, I don't like vote manipulation as a core part of the game - either as a host or as a player. I am also not a fan of using votes as punishment, but I see why others do that.



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Reviving this thread. Kind of.

I'm putting ideas together for a game, and wanted to get opinions on sock puppet games.

The game idea is a last man standing, I'm taking things I liked from TMiBW, removing stuff I did wrong - like some of the BTSC which was just bad unfortunately - but I'm questioning whether it should be another sock puppet game.

Like TMiBW, the sock puppets would be relatively unimportant (no guessing who is who or anything of that nature), so basically the question is: Do you like sock puppet games? Do you think it improves last man standing games? Other relevant thoughts?

Thanks!



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I absolutely LOVE sock puppet games!!!! :nicenod:



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 Post subject: Re: Making better* games discussion thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:03 pm 
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I love sock puppet games~ as someone who takes a lot of flak becasue occasionally i play a baddie game where i do not *u*k up totally, i LOVE going incognito, it removes that whole "In blah blah game she did exactly this and she was bad..." element from the game and makes it about actual game play, not about history.


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