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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:51 pm 
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One thing I really enjoyed during LOST was being able to see the baddies hatch their plots in their BTSC :evilgrinz: and I may make that a feature in future games.

I am not a huge fan of mass amounts of vote manipulation, personally. It wreaks havoc on a spreadsheet :emodude:

I did like how I did prizes in JLvA - with the maze being the central part. I gave points for 3 or 4 different criteria and the maze was the wild card as opposed to the randomness of how I did it in the past. I think it was fair and worked well.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:28 pm 
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I think I'm going to work more roles in that can kill players that role hint, even a little. I think would make the game more fun for everyone.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:05 pm 
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I do not think there is anything wrong with role hinting! it can be a strategy used by either side. I do not understand why this group of players feels so outraged by a strategic element of the game.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:17 pm 
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I think people mainly role hint as a last resort to avoid lynching, though. If that is the best you can do, then you should be lynched, IMO.

I don't like things like mazes, arcade games, etc. Not everyone can play them due to playing on phone or whatever device, or even just due to being lame~ even with help, I still have been unable to complete an LC maze in any game. Although I did love the irony of, after b*tc* about arcade games in KA, I got the role that had to beat the champion or die in an arcade game, lol. I always wondered if you 2 did that on purpose because of my b*tc* ha ha.

You can tell me, I won't cry...too much :(


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Role hinting has ALWAYS been a strategic move since I started playing mafia - it could be a lie, it could be true... but a role hint is NOT OUTING and therefore not something that should be shunned and despised. Frankly, it pisses me off when people whine and b*tc* that someone dropped a hint instead of turning that hint around on its head and making the player look like a liar or whatever. Sometimes a role HAS to hint in order to be found... I know I sometimes write games where roles have to find each other - and it is a gamble with their life to try to hint so they can be found.

It is a strategic maneuver and I will never ever punish or slam a player for hinting at their role. What DOES make me angry is when a player is going down and outs their entire team or the opposing team out of spite.

As for arcade games and such, they are part of this site, they are available to be used by hosts for their games. The maze was also an awesome element. I am sorry if some people cannot play them due to their choice of technology. Most players do participate... I have only ever had 1 other person complain, tbh.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:32 pm 
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LT I am not complaining now. I thought we were discussing what we did and did not like about the elements of our games.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:33 am 
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Death to role hinters!



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Role hinting is like saying I am too lazy to prove myself civvie with my defense. :p
To me it makes the game more boring b/c no one will talk about that player after a hint ( although lately it has been outright outing tbph). If you try and say anything about a hinter/outer then you are auto matically considered bad. Which I don't get.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:58 pm 
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The only place for role hints imo is if your role is being searched for~ and then they have to be SOOOO subtle so you don't endanger yourself or your potential partner.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:08 pm 
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I dunno.... I pretty much convinced the town to lynch the hint dropping cop (although it wasn't actually the cop, but her partner - so good cover for the real cop) in a game where civvie role hinting and outright outing happened.... I even convinced the outed LD that she was wrong about her interpretation of results and I lived to kill the cop. That was my first game. Back then, it was hard to be a baddie because the Cop and LD players would ALWAYS out themselves. I dislike role outing immensely. But that is not hinting.

I will say it again, I think hinting is a valid strategic move in the game of mafia (although I do not do it, personally). It could be true, it could be lies.... it is up to everyone else to decide. It is up to the mafia to make the role hinter a liar... or the civvies to figure out the role hinter is lying....

Are you saying you have never role hinted, S~V~S and Roxy?

And seriously, we have gone from "death to role outers" to death to "role hinters"? When will it be "death to players who post" ? :politegiggle:



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:10 am 
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I dunno. Role hinting is definitely a strategic move. I don't see anything really wrong with it. I've done it before and I'm sure I'll probably do it again at some point. It's a double edged sword because if you're a civ and role hint...you are putting a HUGE target on your back for a NK. If everyone believes your hint and it becomes accepted that you are a civ, you give the baddies no reason to keep you around.

Now, straight up role claiming/outing is something I don't like. I got very upset with Kyle in Arrested Development when he outed himself as the role that could win with anyone and just had to stay alive. It made it way too easy for him to get to the end of the game.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Death to role hinters!

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:08 am 
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Like I said, the only time I find it OK is if you are searching for a partner. Most hinting is done to stay alive, which I do not like. It kills the fun for the baddies, and that is something I am very aware of, having had it happen to me more than once. Games are not just about winning, they are about having fun. To me a role hint is the same as implying info. It is not "cheating" but it is not sporting. I mean, why don't we just start every game with all the civs dropping a hint, and while there might be a few NKs, woo hoo, the civs would win every time.

And I am not the most subtle, I often do not see role hints others make, so I have never attempted to make them. I made one once, and it was by accident, lol. I used a word in my defense (and tbh, I don't recall what game or word, but the game was here on RM) and that word was actually the name of my role, although I did not realize it when I did it. When i was posting after edits, I realized it, and left it cause I thought it was funny~ it did not occur to me that people would take it for a hint, or worse a blatant claim. So I lived, and I should not have because I was playing a lame game, and the baddies worked hard to get me lynched, and I ruined their game for them.

I know not everyone agrees, but it is my opinion. Like i said, role hinting has a place IMO, but it is a very small, subtle place.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:03 am 
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That's funny, SVS, because I am usually HORRIBLE at finding role hints in games...and I'm almost as bad at trying to make them. I've made accidental hints like that before as well.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:58 am 
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Tbh I dont know how I feel about role hints, sometimes Im ok with it, if is subtle, and sometimes it has annoyed me when it is blantantly getting to the role claim, like for example if they point to the part where they role hint because a lot people did not get it

I think almost everyone hints consciously or unconsciously and some players always do it, wheter they realize it or not :p

There are diferent kinds of hinting, like sometimes people ask in the thread a bunch on questions and one of those is their role or when someone talks a lot about their own role but in a third person, but sometimes this 2 kinds are more based in assumptions and whether you trust that person and if they are bluffing or not, cause also baddies do this 2 kinds to later claim one of those roles

So like I said above, Im ok if is subtle, and ofc, I would not like if every single player did it :lol:

Sometimes I can pick role hints but others I dont get it until that players role is reveal :lol:
But personally I try not to role hint, cause I think that makes you more a target imo



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 4:25 pm 
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I never catch role hints either :lol:



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:48 pm 
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I dunno. Role hinting is definitely a strategic move. I don't see anything really wrong with it. I've done it before and I'm sure I'll probably do it again at some point. It's a double edged sword because if you're a civ and role hint...you are putting a HUGE target on your back for a NK. If everyone believes your hint and it becomes accepted that you are a civ, you give the :whip: :sobbing: baddies no reason to keep you around.


I think I agree with this. Role hinting is a strategic move that involves risk taking and stuff, there's always a risk that your hint would be overturned based on mechanics or disproven in some other way, hinting can be a beneficial yet risky move for both civvies and baddies, even fake hinting can be a good civvie move sometimes. :p but I think it depends a lot on game role composition... like I think for example role hinting becomes unbalanced in basically any game with multiple strong civvie info roles. I think basically... it's up to the host to decide whether hinting or role claiming would unbalance the game based on whatever roles are in it, and then the players should honor that.

I also think that an anti role hint role would be a cool mechanic. Like a serial killer type role that kills and gains immunity only when it can guess someone's role or something like that would definitely reduce hints.

Quote:
Now, straight up role claiming/outing is something I don't like. I got very upset with Kyle in Arrested Development when he outed himself as the role that could win with anyone and just had to stay alive. It made it way too easy for him to get to the end of the game.


Yeah I know. :( That was pretty much a complete bulloney unnecessary move tbh and doing that is my biggest mafia regret. That game could have been a lot more fun if I'd done it differently.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:31 pm 
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I dunno. Role hinting is definitely a strategic move. I don't see anything really wrong with it. I've done it before and I'm sure I'll probably do it again at some point. It's a double edged sword because if you're a civ and role hint...you are putting a HUGE target on your back for a NK. If everyone believes your hint and it becomes accepted that you are a civ, you give the :whip: :sobbing: baddies no reason to keep you around.


I think I agree with this. Role hinting is a strategic move that involves risk taking and stuff, there's always a risk that your hint would be overturned based on mechanics or disproven in some other way, hinting can be a beneficial yet risky move for both civvies and baddies, even fake hinting can be a good civvie move sometimes. :p but I think it depends a lot on game role composition... like I think for example role hinting becomes unbalanced in basically any game with multiple strong civvie info roles. I think basically... it's up to the host to decide whether hinting or role claiming would unbalance the game based on whatever roles are in it, and then the players should honor that.

I also think that an anti role hint role would be a cool mechanic. Like a serial killer type role that kills and gains immunity only when it can guess someone's role or something like that would definitely reduce hints.

Quote:
Now, straight up role claiming/outing is something I don't like. I got very upset with Kyle in Arrested Development when he outed himself as the role that could win with anyone and just had to stay alive. It made it way too easy for him to get to the end of the game.


Yeah I know. :( That was pretty much a complete bulloney unnecessary move tbh and doing that is my biggest mafia regret. That game could have been a lot more fun if I'd done it differently.


I disagree with the anti role hint role. Like you said, a game should either be balanced to allow for rolehinting, or it should not play a part. That is up to the host imo. You should have an idea what kind of game you want it to be, base the roles around that, and then make it clear to players.

Introducing a role that kills/benefits from role hinters just strikes me as lazy. If you give it to someone who is awesome as catching role hinters, it becomes overpowered. In the hands of some players though, it would be a useless role (without having them spelt out for me, I'm pretty bad at catching role hints most of the time, because I don't look for them, and I think a lot of people do the same thing). It seems to me that it is basically an admission the the host doesn't want role hinting, but won't actually do anything to players who do so. There may be some very rare games where a role that operates that way would make the game more interesting, but in most, I think it would be boring at best (if players know that such a role exists, they just won't hint), and game ruining at worst (a game where it seems like role hinting is acceptable, and a role like you described exists as a secret indy).



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:19 am 
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I think hinting has it's place. especially if it's a role that needs searching. I'm thinking of beatles on lp - that hint was so subtle - not only did I not get it the first time around - but the person it was aimed at missed it. I can also remember an HV game where splintsy had a gossipy role and threw out a "hint" to rox that was missed till she pointed it out then even I got it.

Hinting is not outing. - That said - what happens when hinting is missed? Then, yea - it does kinda turn into outing if the player is desperate enough.

I miss hints all the time. And sometimes I think I GET hints - when that's not the case at all.

But like was said - by people far smarter than I - that's a host decision - are they going to allow roles that may need to hint? Or not. (I think "find each other" roles open the book for hinting.)

Outside of the whole hinting/outing debate that'll rage here till the sun sets and rises again. - I love this site. I love that we can be experimental here and find what works and what doesn't for us.

SVS and I had a very different Dr. Seuss game planned as we originally wanted to host it here. We adapted it for LP and we are happy with it - but the freedom allowed here, and the willingness to try new things that's here - is pretty unprecedented.

Hands down one of the reasons that this is one of my favorite places to play is because it's the breeding ground for so much epic. And because we can all laugh together when things don't work.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:17 pm 
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If everyone is so bad and catching role hinters they why would anyone do it?

I see them all the time. If you actually pay attention they are right there, in yo face. Besides if it is caught it will be repeated over and over by other players who did catch it.

If you disallow role hinting in your game players will still do it. And you can not mod kill all of them since a lot of players do it. When players do it late game especially it ruins a game IMO. If you have to resort to role hinting you should look into your game play.



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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on how we play
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:46 pm 
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If everyone is so bad and catching role hinters they why would anyone do it?

I see them all the time. If you actually pay attention they are right there, in yo face. Besides if it is caught it will be repeated over and over by other players who did catch it.

If you disallow role hinting in your game players will still do it. And you can not mod kill all of them since a lot of players do it. When players do it late game especially it ruins a game IMO. If you have to resort to role hinting you should look into your game play.


I disagree. I think a lot of hints are more subtle (at least the good ones that couldn't just as easily be called outing), so they don't get caught. And I think the majority that are caught tend to end up being wrong. The repeating thing though is something I don't like. As a civvie, pointing one out is stupid if you think other civvies missed it, if you buy it, defend the person using the thread, and if you don't build a case and get them lynched. As a baddie, just kill them (unless ofc you know it's fake because they're on your team, but I think it's stupid for baddies to fake rolehint).

And I dunno, I think most players avoid it if it's made clear it isn't allowed, and I defintely think you can host kill people who break that, or any other rule. Even if there are lots, kill them anyways, it may make the game worse, but so does role hinting in a game where the host has explicitly said not to, and not enforcing roles is just as bad as breaking them.

I don't really think people have to resort to hinting at the end of the game. By that point, everyone generally has a good idea of what roles are left, and who is what. You don't really need to claim so much as just outright lie if you're a baddie, or disprove them as a civvie. Unless your not talking quite as late in the game as I am (I mean the very last lynch, and maybe second to last in some games). But earlier then that yes, it does have the potential to ruin things.



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